I've encountered the exact opposite problem from this questioner--businesses that are convinced that, without an IT degree (or an advanced IT degree, even), you aren't fit to help network PC's together. As long as companies are going to demand a major in computer science for everyone in IT, even help desk people, the demand is going to exceed the supply.

Bob, I agree with your assessment. I have over 25 years in the computer field, and one thing that has been consistent over that time is that the CS majors, as a group, are the worst for working on business applications. Although some of this seems to be based on training (for many years the typical CS degree was great for designing compilers, but not for designing user interfaces, for example), I think it's largely attitudinal. People with other backgrounds come into the computer field and are eager to learn about it. The computer people, on the other hand, often have to be led by the nose to get them to learn anything about who they're supporting. One of the quotes that rotates through the spot on my wall is, "A good programmer doesn't need to understand the underlying application. An outstanding programmer does." (I'm actually quoting myself there.)

For the record, although just about my entire professional career has been in the computer field, I do not have a computer degree myself.

Bob:

I'm with you on this one all the way, and not just for people with IT degrees. I've worked in the chemical process industry for many years. We have people in the IT department with various backgrounds including HR, Accounting, Engineering, Plant Operations, Field Sales, and Business Management. It's the capabilities of the people that make for success, not their pedigree. In our case, we are huge users of purchased application packages, where business process knowledge and analysis skills are the critical elements. Coincidentally, our field sales, product management and executive teams have people with all these same backgrounds. If Grounded gets exposure to other departments via IT projects and shows that he can be a valuable contributor, the sky is the limit, career-wise.

If you've been around for a while, I'm a little confused about your confusion. Having lived through some of the 90s IT boom myself, here is my perspective:

IT as a field has had very low barriers to entry, largely because it's comparatively very new. It's especially true on the Wintel side of the house. IT grew very rapidly, outstripping the available talent by an incredible margin. It's been like a war since the early 90s. Every time that war ramps up in intensity (Internet, Windows 95, Y2K, SOX...), a lot of warm bodies are needed for cannon fodder. Field promotions are frequent and OJT is an accepted practice in many cases. I was promoted 3 times in the first year of my IT career.

Eventually, I suspect that IT will cool down - either the burgeoning pool of talent will douse the flames, the pace of new developments will fall off, or the new developments will (eek!) render a lot of us IT hacks obsolete. When that happens, the fight will be put back in the hands of the career professional, and in a buyer's market the bar will be raised to require advanced degrees, etc. to get in the game. Here's hoping I don't have to dust off my Electrical Engineering degree before I call it a career....

Oh! Come on!

IT people are "picked" on, when it comes to applying for positions. If I had a nickel, for everytime, someone told me what I can't do (during a job interview) - because "you don't have experience" with that.

Yet, how hard is it to be a Personnel person? Notable are great communication skills, ability to judge people, ability to fill out paperwork.

= Versus, the other side of the fence, in the local paper. Quote so and so hired for being a Web Designer. Qualifications; an Electrical Engineer with a forum web site. Next, new programmer at local Utility company - an Accountant. (You know, even if? they had a minor in CS. I would respect them more.)

Yes, I do have the Bachelors CS degree, and years of experience to go with it. Still, everyone keeps telling me no & doubting "can you do that?" during the job interviews. (Right now, I think it is more age discrimination than qualifications.)

= Another angle. Qustion: How many CEOs without some kind of MBA or business degree?

I'm definitely with Bob on this one!

Don't let your degree, or absense thereof define you!

This is America! You can be anything you let yourself be! I've seen IT folks become HR, business, even intelligence proffessionals. On the opposite spectrum, I'm employed by a software vendor that is ran (very well, btw) by two lawyers.

Having a degree in any given discipline sure helps, but that all it does.

cheers
jake

This is not a knock against IT Pros in the least, but I have oftenfound in my line of work (scientific computing, data acquisition & control) that it is easier to teach a scientist or engineer the computing skills he/she needs than to take an IT person and teach them the science or engineering needed. It is probably because in my applications bad science hurts more than bad programming, and there is often too much of the "technical culture" of science and engineering missing in, for example, a business-oriented IT background.
My ideal situation would be an IT person with a physical science background that can play well with engineers and scientists.

Bob:
By focusing on computer science graduates you miss the large number of people working in IT shops who come out of the management of information systems programs that are located in business schools and in schools of information. These people do understand the business as well as the technology.

It all comes down to supply and demand. The demand for IT skills generally outstrips supply and hence a number of employers are prepared to lower the requirements for entry. In other occupations where supply outstrips demand then the entry barrier is raised and employers can afford to be more selective.

The same situation is currently happening in the construction, mining and resources sector in Australia where demand is so high that new recruits need not have any previous experience in welding etc. All training is provided on the job.

It's a different story for accountants where there is such an oversupply that a basic degree is usual not going to be enough these days.

I’m not sure about the “do-everything programmer/analysts.� In my opinion what “businesses�, corporate, educational, non-profit, etc., need are IT people that are problem solvers. Maybe that’s because I come from an engineering background where given a symptom one must find the real problem, find many (all) possible solutions and select one (or more) solution(s) that fits the problem and the limiting criteria (budget, time frame, etc.).

Many people seem to think that IT is just technical and if you have any technical experience you’re qualified to do anything in IT. They seem to forget about the information side of IT, the part about taking raw data and turning into valuable information. IT is so broad that you can spend your entire career just being a “tech� without ever managing or managing without every being a tech, programming without every talking to the users of your tools, etc., etc. If you have some technical experience to get in the door, some communication, people, management or organizational skills beyond just technical experience you can go anywhere in IT. If all you have is a piece of paper that says CE, CS, EE or XYZ, then go get the training/experience to balance out your portfolio.

A degree (or experience)is not a golden ticket or a straightjacket, just a tool. Hopefully one of many tools you know how to operate.
-Eric

It works the other way too. I've seen plenty of people migrate from the IT to the department they've supported while in IT. For example, someone who wrote an accounting application in a bank would move over to the accounting department and make a career there. And would be good at it too, since he really knows how the accounting is done properly, unlike the "real" accountants.

In reality the degrees have absolutely no relation to the ability to do any job. They're just a waste of time (and of course the paperwork to placate the moronic managers who demand the degrees).

This is for Bob, who thinks IT people are "picked on" in interviews: If your post is an example of how you typically communicate, or even worse if it's how your resume reads, I can tell you with 100% certainty that age discrimination is not why people wonder, "can you do that"?

The last day of my senior year's Bus Admin Advanced Business Problems class, the Professor stunned us all by saying, "Take all that you have just learned in the past 4 years and basically toss it out. When you get a job, the company that you will work for will train you they way they want you. You don't even know what field you will ultimatley make a career in. Your degree has proven that you can attain a goal, have learned how to learn, and can overcome problems. That is basically all that it is good for." That was stunning news considering all the time and expense involved, even in 1969 (OK, I am old). In many ways, however, I have seen what my professor was talking about.

My father had a degree in Metallurgical Engineering and ended up a very successful salesman in the Photographic field. I have a degree in Business Administration and am working in the technical end of IT. If one wants to change professions, one can do it. It isn't going to be easy though. It involves starting over again and pulling out the old learning skills. It also involves a lot of trial and error and disappointments. Technical degrees do tend to pigeon hole one but they can be overcome if one really wants to. After all, 5 years after graduation all of those technical skills so carefully learned will probably have changed anyway. Remember what my professor's statement was about what a degree really is.

I am with Bob on this as well. Most people I know don't find their true calling in college but after trying out a few jobs. In fact some of the best programmers I have worked with majored in such fields as Russian, Theater and Film while in college.

So cheer up. In 10 years you may find you like being a tour guide in the Amazon jungle more than programming.

Bottom line. If you are good at it, somebody will pay you to do it.

Ag

AS usual I have to agree with Bob. In reality it is up to the individual to learn about the other areas. The more you do that, no matter what your background, the greater your chance of success in areas outside your degree.

I've come to realize that college degrees are just a start in your education. The more you learn afterwards, in whatever areas, the greater your chances of success and the more flexible you become.

I'd definitely agree with Al's comment. A degree or cert is really only as good as the person who holds it, and the "paper MCSE" used to be (maybe still is?) so common that it's a cliche. One thing I have wondered, though, is what the relevance is of the degree. Might be different elsewhere, I suppose, but the degrees I've seen at CU Denver and elsewhere in Colorado were always of the programming and accounting variety. Don't know what that has to do with networking. I don't know that I've ever needed to know anything about PERL, Java, or C++ to diagnose a sick router.

I think that the big problem is not the people coming in from other specialties, The problem is the "having seen a computer" makes one an "expert". I have over the years seen many examples of people who have came into IT from other areas with no training and who because good assets to IT. But I have seen more of them become disasters. The difference between disasters and assets is in their willingness to accept that they are not experts. To many people seem to be assigned to be, especially managers, in IT because they have failed miserably in other areas and then because it is inconvenient to get rid of them "promoted" into IT.

In a recent case I had to go over with a manager a data storage plan, and had to start with magnetism as the means of storage being used, and was informed that I was lying to him because electricity can't control magnets "metal is either is or is not magnetic and you can't change this with electricity". So the project was rejected because he needed one written by someone not lying to him. He has already fired several other people for "lying" to him in other projects.

In response to Ray Stevens' last comment, I have to say that nearly all of the people that I have worked with in IT started out headed for other careers. The whole spectrum of success and failure is represented in that set of people, and there is little correlation between their competence and which letters happen to be on their diplomas.

I think a more common problem than the history major who takes up IT as a profession and becomes a disaster is the person who get hired because they have some piece of paper that certifies them as an "expert" database or OS administrator. They've had the "training" as evidenced by their certification, but what does it mean? They memorized a few answers and took a few tests. That doubles their earning power and makes them more-viable candidates than professionals with years of experience. I've never lost a job to one of these characters, but I've worked with several disasters of this nature.

I concur with those who say that a degree is usually more a proof of your native ability than preparation for what you will encounter in the working world.

I've been working for the same small company, (About 250 employees), for 10 years as basically the whole IT department. So, I do system administration, network management, programming, PC helpdesk, PC hardware repair, and inventory, create the PowerPoint slideshows for management and update the company website. Heck if it runs on batteries or has an A/C plug, I'll give it a shot.

My degree: AS in Broadcasting.

Too busy working to pursue anything further.

After the Internet crash, the IT field changed. I've been working with computers since the mid-70s and lately I've been told that I don't qualify for a job because I don't hold an advance degree in a tech field. In late ‘99, I did 143 interviews for a “System (anything)� job in Denver and just couldn’t get selected because of the lack of a degree. Now I’m working for a very small newspaper in Florida while I attend the local college to get that degree. It was really hard sitting through an “Intro to computers� class, because it was required for my degree. I would like to have CLEP’d that class. So, if you don’t have an advanced degree in a Science or Management field, I would suggest you look at getting one, the fields are changing and unless you want to work for that college student who has all book knowledge but no real experience, your check into the nearest college for a few night classes.