Que drama

Gosh, suprising that an immigration lawyer would favor raising H-1b.

Filing H-1b petitions is a repetative task, yet immigration attourneys charge far more per hour than tech workers - isnt there a 'desparate shortage of immigration lawyers'? Funny how the lawyers never connect the dots on that one.

(truth be told, the last thing we need, is more of those self centered buttholes)

There's clearly a high demand to come here. Unfortunately, domestic protectionists don't want competition from foreign IT workers. Hopefully the Dems new trade guru in congress will act to make things a little more fair for aspiring immigrants.

I read of a fellow who actually sorted through a year's H1-B applications, and most were not from Microsoft, Oracle, etc. Rather, most were from Indian outsourcing companies. Apparently their technique was to bring H1-B workers here, fill a job, and then take that job with them back to India in a couple years. I'm sure if the roles were reversed, we'd be doing the same thing .. but is this really what we want for this country?

Yup, gotta make it more fair for those H1-Bs to come here and take US jobs back with them. I've already been told my job is going away, but that I need to train my replacements (it takes three to do the job I'm doing) before I'm let go from the company. The real kicker is all three that will be doing my job are here on H1-Bs from an off-shore outsourcing company. When their H1-B visa expires so does my job. I'm still trying to figure out how, if I'm doing my job here in the US, that my company couldn't find a skilled worker in the US to do the job I'm already already doing. This, as I understand it, is a requirement for H1-B visas. I know the real reason - bottom line, gotta make the shareholders happy. Oh well.

Actually, most of the H-1Bs I file are for physicians going to work in underserved communities throughout America. While many of you are no doubt excited that so many applicants didn't get visas in this year's quota, I hope you know what this is doing to rural communities across the US who have no doctors and were depending on physicians coming in October based on applications that were filed Monday.

I find it most interesting that people express outrage that H-1Bs are taking jobs never seem to have any data to support their claims. They'll trot out anecdote after anecdote, but when pressed to document the claim with hard facts, the silence is deafening. I suggest reading the latest BLS unemployment data for professional workers. IT comes in at 2%. That's among the lowest for any field in the entire US economy (the national unemployment rate is around 5%).

I know people will shout at me over this, but I think workers in IT that are unemployed are unemployed because they are not employable (due to personal issues or a lack of expertise in current technologies) as opposed to losing out to a foreign worker. The data certainly suggests that. Either that or they are unwilling to locate to where the jobs in the US actually are.

In any case, IT folks live and die by numbers. Liberal arts majors argue in anecdotes. Show me the numbers and I'll start considering to the arguments.

Response to the "Soon to be unemployed" comment. That sounds unfair to me. I would at the least call or send notice of your situation to the two Senators who are introducing a bill in Congress to stop this kind of behavior on the part of employers.
The bill is called the "H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act of 2007" and it is sponsored by Senators Dick Durbin [D-Ill.] and Chuck Grassley [R-Iowa].

Here's a link to the story. http://weblog.infoworld.com/realitycheck/archives/2007/04/h1b_reform_bill.html

Ephraim at InfoWorld

American jobs for Americans? Why would Americans want that? Or without the sarcasm, why wouldn't an American want that?

Lawyers are like other people--fools on the average; but it is easier for an ass to succeed in that trade than any other. - Samuel Clements

Might the reason for the low unemployment percentage be that experienced people are leaving the IT industry in droves? I know numerous people who have done so, for a variety of reasons, in the last ten years or so.

The comment from "Soon to be Unemployed" at April 4, 2007 11:00 AM- hit the nail on the head.

Go to Monster India and look at the many, many new IT jobs. Reminds me of the dot-com boom here in the US during the late 90's.

I've lived and worked in India off and on since 2004. I can empathize with both my Indian-origin and Western friends. That said, 'the world is not flat' when it comes to a reverse commute to work. As a US citizen (born and raised) trying to go to India, one can only get a work visa to India if you are of Indian origin (i.e., a Citizen of Indian Origin or a Person of Indian Origin). My resume is on Monster India. I get many desparate responses wishing to hire me (ironically promising a chance to work in the US). However, I can't get sponsored for a work visa when they learn I'm a US citizen.

Mr. Siskind only need look for the numbers of H1-Bs that had to go home after the lay-offs in 2000-2002 during the dot-com bust to discover that an H1-B threshhold is appropriate. The 'truth is always in the middle' Mr. Siskind. I guess that expression would represent the 'median' demographic figure in your mind.

Reality Check:

"Characteristics of Specialty Occupation Workers (H-1B):Fiscal Year 2005"

In 2005, There were 117,536 H1B petition filed, of those petitions 116,927 were approved for initial employment the H1B approval rate for 2005 was 99.48%. In 2004 there were 163,549 H1B petitions, with 130,497 H1B initial approvals, but the approval rate was a more realistic 79.79%

Only fifty-four percent of H1B employment approvals held a Masters degree or higher in 2005. Of the total 117,536 initial employment petitions for 2005 "Highly Skilled Worker" visas, only 63469.44 had completed a postgraduate degree according to the 54% statistic.

One way to address the Highly Skilled Worker visa shortage is to raise the educational requirements to "Highly Skilled." AKA postgraduate educational levels.

By raising the minimum educational requirement for an H1B visa from a bachelors degree to a postgraduate degree, there would have been an H1B for every applicant. The recent addition of 20,000 postgraduate exemptions would not have been tapped.

Guestworker applications should be graded by salary offers and contract duration -- the best written offers (to the employee) should "win" the H1B visa.

The first come, first served lottery style visa adjudication is laziness on the part of USCIS, guestworker petitions should be graded on merit of the entire employment agreement.

Initial H1B Petitions | Initial H1B Approvals | Approval rating
2002 109,576 103584 94.53%
2003 108,526 105314 97.04%
2004 163,549 130497 79.79%
2005 117536 116927 99.48%
Total 499,187 456322 91.41%

Median Salary $55,000.00

2002-2005 Initial H1B Salaries $25,097,710,000.00
2002-2005 Continuing H1B Salaries $28,220,720,000.00

Estimated salary six year impact of H1B salaries.
$70,913,511,900.00

That's $70.9 Billion annually in salaries that are off-limits to American citizens.

Sample (2005) Ratio of Computer Systems Design & Related Services against other H1B categories:

26.68 "Computer Sys." to 1 "Offices of Physicians"
50.24 "Computer Sys." to 1 "Legal Services"

To, Greg Siskind

I'm not shouting :-)

Mr Siskind wrote:

"I know people will shout at me over this, but I think workers in IT that are unemployed are unemployed because they are not employable (due to personal issues or a lack of expertise in current technologies) as opposed to losing out to a foreign worker. The data certainly suggests that. Either that or they are unwilling to locate to where the jobs in the US actually"

The actual problem with domestic computer workers derives from layoffs during the protracted recession while almost all of the jobs created 2001 - 2004 went to guestworkers.

Unemployable, yes bankruptcy and multi-year gaps in employment history do tend to make one unemployable. Many of us built the current technology, but are discounted off hand by personnel screeners due to no experience in the current software revision, or an H1B is standing by for a possible 3 year commission.

If you are looking at the unemployment rate as an economic indicator, the neocons have you fooled, the real jobless figures are in the NILF category.

Your concern over rural doctors is admirable, the simple solution is to change the H1B educational requirement to postgraduate degree.

There is nothing remarkable about the AILA getting 150,000 petitions in the mail on time. The 2008 number is well below 2004 petitions (163,549 )and many will not be subject to the cap.

As for "saving" the economy through immigration, you're about 10 million rental housing units short. Immigration raises salary requirements beyond globally competitive levels to pay the housing costs alone.

I'm sure that adding a million lawyers to our economy over a period of six years wouldn't hurt the industry, unless there was a recession during that six year period.

I am not very well aware of the IT industry but I know for sure that most of these visas are by companies who file them for candidates back home who cannot come here until october of 2008. Most of these candidates are paid lower wages than the average american.

Me, a Masters 3 yrs ago, a Phd on way this year, excellent research job in medical field, just have to go back with almost nothing (just about to finish the debt accumlated during the initial semesters of Master's) just because of no visa availability!:(

Mystic,

The 2005 data I'm looking at show that 32% of the H1B visa went to the "Computer Systems Design & Related Services."

Your visa was taken by greedy contract-employers in the Tech-Sector and a government agency that doesn't seem to care.

Hopefully, you can get in on the one of the 20,000 postgraduate degree visas.

http://immigration-weaver.blogspot.com/

I don't necessarily disagree with comments on raising H-1B educational requirements. I'd suggest revamping the H-1B program. I'd leave one general program at 65,000 or so for bachelors level positions and limit the program to IT workers. I'd add a new uncapped program for masters degree and higher individuals. And I'd add an uncapped program for bachelors level and higher professionals if an employer goes through a recruiting process along the lines suggested in the Durbin/Grassley proposal. If an employer can prove it's attempted in good faith to recruit an American and there is just no one available, why should they be stuck with the cap. That just means the position will be outsourced abroad or you deal with the impact of not filling the job at all (such as with the small towns and the doctors). The 65,000 quota is so small compared to the size of the work force in the US (and remember that only half are going to IT), that it's not a lot to give away.

In the IT industry, H-1B has been seriously abused for years.

I used to work at the Ford Program Office in Dearborn of a major software company. At least 2/3 of our programmers were from India on H-1B visas.

Most of the time when I had an opening I would be required to rig the job requirements so that we would be unable to find a local programmer to meet them so that we could then bring over a worker from India who had already been selected for the job.

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but there is no doubt in my mind that a lot of people in southeast Michigan didn't get jobs in IT because of intentional abuse of the H-1B system.

Mr, Siskind

Computer sector is only half of the guestworkers? The visas that are exempt from the cap can also be computer jobs.

From the BLS SOC codes the number of "Computer Related" payroll jobs came in at 2,855,320 on 2/10/07.

Heres a conservative estimate for "Computer Related" visas.

6 year H1B = 300,000
5 year L1 = 700,000 (no cap)
6 year EB = 120,000

Total = 1,120,000

We could probably throw another million jobs to offshoring.

As I'm sure that you are well aware, many expired H1Bs are on yearly extensions while applying for citizenship. So the bottom line is that the job displacement period extends beyond six years. Therefore, the percentage in the computer guestworker sector is surely higher than 39.22% shown here.

So why should you care? When the AILA promotes the abuse of one sector of immigration and allows the sector to be used as an offshoring internship -- the citizens begin to think that the entire guestworker system is corrupt.

Again, we are not in the BLS unemploymed category anymore, we are in the NILF category.
There are 78 million potential voters in the NILF category.

HOW TO CONTACT CONGRESS REGARDING CURRENT H-1B CRISIS SITUATION:

See available webform to contact your Congressman or Senator here

http://capwiz.com/aila2/issues/alert/?alertid=9221981&type=CO

The only people complaining on this forum are whiners and losers, whose intellectual guru is Loony Loo Dobbs.

I'm a proud H1B with a master's degree from a top ivy and bringing in millions of dollars of new business for my company, which in turn has helped create between 5-10 jobs for domestic US workers.

I'd like to hear what folks think of Greg Siskind's proposal to leave the H-1B quota at 65,000 for those with a bachelor's degree and limit the program to IT works but add a new uncapped program for masters degree and higher individuals.

Ephraim at InfoWorld

What an arrogant low-life to say "IT that are unemployed are unemployed because they are not employable (due to personal issues or a lack of expertise in current technologies). In the IT world, it has come down to pure money and greed!

I have several friends in Silicon Valley, Texas, NY and Boston who've had a tough time getting back into the IT game, not from a lack of ability, but because of their PAST salaries and bonuses, that were ALL justified. Some of them are the most talented, can-do technologists you would ever meet.

So don't give me your piss ant theory of why we need more H1B visas! I want talent coming in, but NEVER at the expense of our own American born engineers.

In part, India is playing the system against us, by sending people here, only to have them bring the work back to India later, at a much lower salary to them when they return. It's bizzar.

FYI, many quality engineers are working in jobs outside their expertise and, in some cases, in non-technical jobs. They now must compete with newbies with lower pay and benefits.

It's not that simple.

Also, I am 1/2 owner in a tech company and, if we want, we can get top flight programmers in Russia or the Ukrain, that are much more trustworthy than in India, for $16 per hour! We still hire inhouse, but contract out when necessary.

I'd love to see you make your idiotic statment above in person to some out of work engineers in Silicon Valley! I'd enjoy the butt kicking!

Mr. Schwartz,

I don't see the cap as being the problem. The problem is unneeded workers who are required to pay a fee, just to be considered, and coerced into signing an unread personal service agreement moments before boarding the airplane.

Once the employee is in the U.S. there is usually a short-term assignment and then the (hourly) employee is eligible to be "benched" with reduced or no-pay. These guestworkers are very likely to compete with American workers and are preferred by personnel firms, because the end-employer is less likely to make a direct offer to the terminal H1B. In other words, the personnel firm is far more likely to be included in short-term contract renewals when placing an H1B.

The best way to resolve this situation is to require salary offers and eliminate H1B - L1 hourly compensation. If the sponsor cannot provide billable hours, that is the fault of the sponsor -- the employee should be paid a salary for bench time, or be released.

Just like any other scarce resource, the benefactor should be required to bid for the resource. The H1B visa is a three year visa, an offer-letter and a three year employment contract should accompany the LCA. The employment contract would protect the guestworker and bring unfair indenturing agreements to the attention of U.S. justice system.

As for American postgraduate degrees, Bill Gates is correct about these graduates, America would be much better served if they became first priority for naturalizations and held dual-citizenship to become bi-national mediators in global-trade.

"4. Wages for the faithful services of an able-bodied man, during the proper working hours of the day, in order to be adequate and equitable wages, must more than suffice for his comfortable sustenance as a mere animal. They must enable him to support a family, to supply his own and their social wants as intellectual and moral beings, to discharge his responsibilities as a member of society, and lay up a surplus for the ordinary exigences of the future."

Author: Goodell, William. Title: The American Slave Code in Theory and Practice: Its Distinctive Features Shown by Its Statutes, Judicial Decisions, and Illustrative Facts. Citation: New York: American and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society, 1853. Subdivision: Part I, Chapter XII HTML by Dinsmore Documentation * Added June 6, 2003

The work that immigration lawyers do to file an H-1b, is quite repetative, and doesnt require a lot of skill once learned.

Yet, lawyers charge far more per hour to do this than tech workers get.

Might there be a 'desparate shortage of immigration lawyers'?

Interesting that immigration lawyers never bring this up, with all their expertise on labor shortages.

Some of you might think it's because they're 2 faced self centered jerks, i'm sure it's something else

Everyone probably agrees that the H1B system has been abused by IT industires.
I can recall so many incidences during my master's program. I am about to finish master's in mechanical engineering and i am looking for job ( note i am an international student), i used to get calls every week from contractors who would hire me on H1B, becauze of my M.S. and be ready to train me for 15 days in so called lattest technologies and send to work for fortune 500 companies as data loggers/data miners, offcourse showing fake 5 years experience.
Because of this, H1Bs are even harder now for students with Master's from u.s. university.
there were few mechanical engineering companies ready to hire but by the time i finish my m.s. and be ready to apply quota will be gone.
The current H1B programm needs a great overhaul.
The other thing that bothers me is how can lottery be effective means of competitiveness when a smarty with undergrad from M.I.T. has equal chance as tom dick and harry from some third grade university from india.

Apply the law of supply and demand to labor.

more visa workers= less demand = lower wages = less Americans entering field = need for more visas to keep wages down...
or the reverse

less H1B's = higher demand for American Workers = increased wages = more Americans entering field = less need for H1B's...

Unless you don't like the FREE market then government interference in the labor market is ok, right? That is what these programs are.

American student aren't stupid, they know the manager of an engineer makes more than the engineer and business degrees are easy to get and less expensive. If wages in these fields went up and jobs were available to AMERICANS.....

Also an engineer driving a truck is considered "Employed"