"Companies will find a way."
Yes, they will, and they will learn to do it in full compliance with United States immigration law. Otherwise, they will have to move somewhere out of the country. If U.S. companies do not want to strictly meet all lawful criteria in operating within the United States, they forfeit the luxury of doing so.
Excellent companies will survive and profit here as they have always done.
Your propaganda is interesting, but not relevant.
I doubt strongly any firm will be able to operate in a mannner without obeying the laws of the nation in which they conduct operations!
If they believe latin-america is a better climate they are welcome to take that risk.

"Analyst: Expect more offshoring if U.S. tightens on immigration"

...and if US does not tighten on immigration, expect more outsourcing. This will occur more easily if the quotas are raised because more H-1s and L-1s will be able to move into the US for a short time to suck the brains dry of existing development and maintenance teams. So what's the point of the headline? To try and throw a scare into those of us who write or maintain code?

Actually the opposite has happened. As H-1B visas become scarce, the Indian companies have begun hiring in the united states and even providing training to local employees. Just check recent news articles on this topic:

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201400252

This guy is lying. Indian companies are ALREADY starting to hire more people in the USA because their aren't enough H-1b visas for them to exploit that cheap labor pool.

The H-1b ENABLES offshoring. Of course, this is an interview of an Indian offshoring executing. Of course he would lie.

Yes Mr. Lawson, you are right!! That is why after H1B quotas fell to 65,000 Microsoft decided to move some of its operations to Canada!! Great insight!!

Funny Immigration Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7qKD-Ph7ds

Microsoft's office in Canada is evidence that the company can't completely offshore. As for jobs moving to/from Canada, that's been going on for years.

You've got to move across an ocean to offshore.

I don't care if companies choose to go to Mexico or Canada, we can still do business with them, and those countries have anti-discrimination policies.

The main problem with the h-1b program is the preferential hiring of candidates from a cheap labor country, be it India, China, or some Eastern European country, and not giving U.S. citizens a chance to compete for those jobs.

The poverty is so bad in India, that the Indian government cannot afford (they don't have the balls) to stop the rampant discrimination against non-Indian candidates that apply for U.S. jobs with Indian out-sourcing companies.

Listen, Executives live in a formula world. They go to bed at night thinking (do I have the right mix of inputs). They don't think about what happens at the bottom, when people use policies to their build a close group of cronies.

Execs can never realize that so much of software development is really about individual strength and passion.

That is why Microsoft is building an office in Canada, an exec sees it as part of the input formula, but what they don't see is how the work actually gets done.

Do you remember when U.S. auto companies built factories outside the U.S.? It wasn't much later when Japanese automakers started build plants in the United States.

I worked for a Japanese company for several years during nineties, doing development work for Japanese customers.

Well Late-stage offshoring, (such as Microsoft's office in Canada) is what happens when U.S. executive's run out of ideas and vision for what is really happening at the bottom. Other companies, some of them foreign, get their workers.

Of course Tony Viola would say that, considering who he serves. Yes, they are threatening, trying to get what they want. And yes, increasing guestworker visas is the last thing America should do. The H-1B program (and its sister, the L-1) is so rife with abuse and fraud, it's hard to see how anybody can discuss this issue with a straight face. Microsoft's move to Canada was pure spin: not the first or the last foreign facility, they just ranted like it was about immigration restriction, again trying to pressure Congress and America into caving in.

Microsoft did NOT open the Vancouver Canada shop due to H-1b quota - that was a PR stunt and they were planning to open it either way. See reference at http://programmersguild.blogspot.com

This article shows that when Indian firms are restricted from bringing in Indians, they are suddenly able to find American workers.

H-1b program is a sham on U.S. workers and should be suspended until it is reformed to only be used in the limited cases where no Americans possess the required skills

Funny to see so many that give their"limited opinion " about immigration issues, without even have read an immigration or economics book:)
I have yet to see one person, who says,"HECK I COULD NOT GET A JOB, WASHING DISHES, IN THE FIELDS , MOWING LAWNS, BECAUSE OF THIS "ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.??CORPORATE OWNERS HAVE THE CHOICE TO CHOSE WHERE THEY WANT TO OPEN AND PRODUCE, THE MORE USA STANDS FIRM IN THESE RIDICULES IMMIGRATION LAWS, THE MORE JOBS WILL GO OVERSEAS.

STOP BLAMING THE POOR MIGRANT. GET EDUCATED & EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN SO THEY WONT BECOME FIELD WORKERS AND DISHWASHERS, LIKE THIS YOU'LL HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT LOW CLASS WAGES AND LIVING. THAT IS A HUGE PERIOD.
YOU ARE THE SOLE MASTER OF YOUR DESTINY.
HERE IS A PIECE OF ADVISE, GET THE BOOK, THINK & GROW RICH ACTION PACK BY DR NAPOLEON HILL, IT WILL TEACH YOU, YOUR CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN THE STEPS TO SUCCESS, LIKE THIS YOU'LL WONT BE WORRIED BY DISHWASHERS.GOOD LUCK :):)

I want to agree with the last post by "Funny". Most people here don't seem to have much of a clue when it comes to corporate Micro Economics, and they make assumptions that are simply not based in fact.

The H1B issue is a large one. 65000 visas get taken in 3 days, and on the 4th day if a company finds a highly qualified candidate that needs visa sponsorship, they can be looking at 18 months before the candidate can be brought in.

If you are worried about labor practices, then the best solution is to have these people come and live and work in the US where we have "some" form of controls. But the fact is, you have a choice:

Bring the worker to where the work is (immigration) or
Bring the work to where the worker is (offshoring)

In the IT field, there is a NEED for workers. If someone is even slightly good at what they do, you can be certain they are employed. And companies are ALWAYS looking. The IT industry at this point should have it's own class of visa which like the Farm Worker visa is designed to service a particular industry.

Worried about competition?? If the worked comes over here, his cost structure is like yours. He pays local rent, local grocery bills, local gas prices, and therefore needs a local salary. If he is in India where rent is low, and food is cheaper, he needs an Indian salary. You compete better with him when he is local to you.

As for offshore not counting in Canada or Mexico, what school of economics did you go to. The term offshore does not mean to imply across an ocean! If it is not within the countries borders, consider it off shore. The money goes in one direction, out of the country. The expertise, and education go with it. There are no taxes paid in the US, no spending in the US. It is an economic net loss.

Offshore work has happened for years in countries like Ireland, England, Germany, Canada, Japan, South Korea, and China. Not only IT, but any time a manufacturer chooses to make his product outside the US, the money spent making the product goes out the door. But companies are in business to make money. It's the nature of the beast to find the cheapest way to create their offering and sell it at the most profitable price. If you think they should act differently, have your 401K invested in a few companies that choose to only work locally no matter what the cost. Chances are you might retire on Alpo. because any company that is not paying close attention to the bottom line is a company that will not be in business very much longer.

I also have to agree about the Software as a Service issue. Many companies can now service you via the internet with a packaged product. You don't buy it in the US, and the server and all of the support crew are in other countries. I saw this happening in HR applications (time and attendance) as far back as 2000.

Folks, take the time to understand the world around you. And shame on the reporters that spin sound bites on an unsuspecting public. If you are going to print a line, tell the story. THE WHOLE STORY. This country is being educated by sound bites, and the result is a bunch of folks who think they know things and have only half a clue. The half you CHOOSE to give them.

I apprecited the opportunity to speak with Ephraim on the future of outsourcing and know that it touches on a number of very sensitive issues. I did want to point out two clarifications from our discussion and how they relate to the original posting.

The first is in regards to paragraph three that starts with, "Despite possible new restrictions" ... in the context of our conversation, my reference was in no way focused on saying that the United States Congress is too late to establish stricter immigration legislation (nor shouldn't), rather I was stating that outsourcing is an established practice within the global business community, companies are benefiting from this practice and are not likely to stop because it enables them to be more competitive in their respective market segments. Legislation may put up roadblocks but will never stop the practice.

As for the later part of the blog under the section, "Companies will find a way," my point in the use of automated tools and Software as a Service (SaaS) solutions, was in reference to global outsourcing companies needing to adapt their business model and use solutions such as these to stay competitive. Simply adding more workers to their labor pools will not be the continued answer for success, rather the automated technologies will assist outsourcing companies to deliver solutions more quickly while enabling their customers to acquire them less expensively.

I know that by making the following comments that the men with the butterfly net and pretty white coats will surely be knocking...

For you see, I have a degree in business, accounting and have been a business owner as well as a corporate executive.

Competitive economics are surely driving all of this. But at what price?

The price of American workers without jobs?

The price of poisoned children because some Chinese company used lead paint on toy cars?

These two things sound entirely different don't they? But they are not! It is the sacrificing of the individual (be it an employee or a child's health) to make a buck.

Businesses have two responsibilities. First to society as a whole and secondly to it's owners. To society is has the responsibility to be a good citizen, returning money in the form of wages and taxes to the community. The workers spend their wages on goods and services which allows another company to pay it's workers and it's workers spend their money on goods and services which allows the next company to pay its workers ...

If the first company moves all of it's workers off shore then the second company will have no sales and cannot pay their workers who then can no longer buy from the third company.

It is a snow ball rolling down hill, and it has been rolling along for more than a few years. The IT industry is just the latest industry to start this race to suicide.

My figures are not correct as this is based upon 8th hand information, but I am sure someone here can provide the true figures.

A friend who works for Sun Microsystems has worked there since the mid 70's. She remembers the growth of the company and the beautiful campus with 20+ thousand workers. A year ago over dinner she told me how lucky she was to still be working there because there were fewer than 1000 workers there anymore. Everything was now done off shore except accounting and a small sales force.

I can't help but wonder if those talented people who designed what was once the absolute best servers are now serving burgers at Mc Donald’s. You see she said, "Sun has chased those profits from lowering cost right to the brink of oblivion." As has Dell, HP, IBM and others.

It seems that Dell may have woken up and is bringing at least its service and some of its engineering back home. Let's hope so.

For America must wake up to the fact that we must employee our own people... Else we will wake up one day with everyone in the bread lines.

Just my two cents worth.
Dalton Williams

None of you guys understand the concept of Foreign Direct Investment do you? That is the next stage to offshoring. Some corporations have even moved their world headquarters. If another bridge falls, if the levees burst again after a hurricane or if there is another space disaster expect offshoring to start and investment to start leaving the United States. If you perform jobs will stay here, H1B or not. If you dont perform, the jobs will move...for there would be a perception of an incompetent American, right or wrong.

"H-1b program is a sham on U.S. workers and should be suspended until it is reformed to only be used in the limited cases where no Americans possess the required skills."

Until 2005, Germany had no immigration program equivalent to H1B. The result was the jobs moved aborad...perform and jobs wont go abroad. Produce bridges that falls, and levees that collapse under the weight of a Category 2 curricane, it would give a perception of the incompetent American, who while blaming minorities for affirmative action for being less qualified is himself less qualified and demanding entitlement...and more jobs will move abroad...this is the fact of life. Stop sticking the head in the sand. As of now, Americans are regarded as a cant do nation...plainly incompetent. The products built by Americans (just like the toys from China) have been called into question such as the Minneapolis Bridge..as long as some computer system does not fail somewhere and the competence of immigrants is called into question, jobs will go for the best qualified people.

http://weblog.infoworld.com/realitycheck/archives/2007/08/analyst_predict.html

Why is CEO pay escalating? "Prices get bid up for a shortage of talent." Why are IT jobs going offshore? "Companies will use the lowest cost source they can."

The problem is commoditization of technical skills. It used to take a highly trained specialist to write a program. Now, the tools and technology have made it much easier to write programs, so a much larger group of people are able to program.

What do you do that is unique and can't be done by someone else? If you can't identify something you do that few other people can, you are in a commodity role.

"I saw this happening in HR applications (time and attendance) as far back as 2000"

Time and attendance is a stinking punch clock with a reporting feature. 5 tables, tops. Hardly anything to determine economic policy on.

Truth is, this article, and everything about it, is a lie. Every job that can go overseas, WILL go overseas, with or without H-1B. H-1Bs are 3 times more expensive than overseas workers.

So whom do the new H-1Bs compete with? American programmers and current H-1Bs, for the jobs that are left.

In the day and age in which there really, truly, are nearly zero programmers born in America anymore, the discussion needs to be focused on what's the best for current H-1B workers (and for greencarded workers.)

Current H-1B workers benefit from a lower H-1B cap. They benefit from this in the form of higher wages, greater job security, and a shorter line for a greencard.

The remaining American workers need to work alongside current H-1B workers to make sure they get exactly that--high wages, job security, and a short line for a greencard. To accomplish this, we need to keep the cap low.

Will there be fewer programming jobs if we don't increase the cap? A couple jobs will definitely disappear--but tens of thousands fewer jobs will be needed, and wages will be much higher. Industry is lobbying for the higher cap because it will lower wages. They are lobbying for the higher cap because they plan to outsource anyway, and increased immigration saves money on the jobs that are left.

Or as Oracle's own lobbyist, Robert Hoffman, said, "the problem [the reason we need H-1B] is that not every company has the ability to relocate [every job] overseas." In other words, H-1Bs are used for the jobs that are left AFTER outsourcing has already taken place.

It's also important to keep in mind that during any boom--including the one that just ended--may jobs "created" are fake, and any supposed shortage isn't real. Many immigrant mangers, wrongly, see programming as a means to immigration--not immigration as a means to programming. These managers actually ask questions like "can one job be performed with 3 people--or better, yet, 4?" to get more people into the country. They think they're doing their countrymen a favor since they think all Americans are stupid and there's a limitless supply of good jobs that foreigners can take.

Later on, when these "fake jobs" disappear, H-1Bs are sitting on the bench desperately looking for the first bodyshopper that will again abuse them.

The FIRST thing foreigners need to learn is that America has 3 million people in the upper 1% of intelligence, and 6 million people in the upper 2%. If they're merely an average "genius"--there's probably 6 million people already here smarter than them.

The SECOND thing they need to learn is that after they assimilate into the US, they, too will be an "overpaid American." It would be nice if they would show some loyalty to the team they are trying to join.

We're all in the same boat. EVERY time I comment on these forums, I extend the olive branch to the H-1Bs, saying we need to work together. You're not as smart as you think; your only defense is to work together with the nearly-extinct American-born programmer, and the much-more-common green-carded programmer, towards a common goal--a lower cap on H-1B visas.

I have been in and out in various countries including USA on work visas (analog of H1Bs, they are called differently in each country). What people need to realize: world is getting smaller and labor market is going global whether you want it or not. Capital/finance markets went global first, goods/commodities markets followed, now is the turn of the last piece, labor.

Now you can keep plugging holes with your fingers but you WILL run out of fingers. I'm currently earning pretty decent salary (six figures USD with taxes much lower than anywhere in US) in south east asia working for company headquartered in US. You probably can guess why I ended up here vs being relocated to US. BTW, I'm in no rush to move to US. I kinda like it here in Asia. My friend has been just hired by Google and since H1Bs are not available he decided to tour Europe for few years
(he got tired of Asia since he's been here for few years already) and is moving to Google's Zurich office. You can bitch and moan but companies WILL hire the most suitable candidate for the job regardless of geography. By the most suitable I mean candidate that delivers adequate perfomance (you see it's not about just skills, perfomance does matter) for the least cost. Now be the americans I know: go out and compete.

"By the most suitable I mean candidate that delivers adequate perfomance (you see it's not about just skills, perfomance does matter) for the least cost. Now be the americans I know"

American workers have NEVER competed on price. There have been countries that have outpriced us on labor for hundreds of years. So what? We don't intend to become them.

The success of our country has been in maintaining a high capital/labor ratio. Limiting both the birth rate and immigration is the only way to accomplish this.

Can/does capital migrate? Yes. But that's no excuse to support unlimited immigration. The capital stock of the US continues to increase at a faster rate than capital is outsourced--mostly because a 3% growth rate on our huge capital stock is GREATER than the outflux due to outsourcing. If we limit immigration, we will remain the wealthiest country in the world even as we invest overseas.

There's a reason TRADE is called TRADE, and IMMIGRATION is called IMMIGRATION. We are designed, as a country, to exploit the third world, without becoming it.

If work can be done more cheaply elsewhere, it should be done there. Elsewhere.

American programmers and current H-1Bs do not benefit by having more new H-1Bs come here. It is much better to specialize in what cannot be offshored--small projects with loose specs--than to deal with the decline overall wages and inflation caused by increased immigration.

People are not the same as goods, nor are they the same thing as tradable services. As much as I believe in free trade--and I do believe in it--I don't believe that immigration and trade are the same thing. Immigration puts a physical body in the US--one that not only offers services onsite, but also raises the prices of land, goods and services in the immediate area.

Trade, on the other hand, merely forces Americans to specialize in areas that are less tradeable.

It's very obvious which one is better for Americans--as well as for the current immigrants.

American programmers, green-carded programmers, and current H-1Bs should all work together to keep the cap low--which will ensure high wages, better job stability, and a shorter wait for a greencard.

Finally, I am delighted that you have found a job in Asia managing poorly paid workers and get a 6 figure salary yourself. Sounds like fun--but please--enjoy this in Asia, not in the US. We're a country that likes a high PER CAPITA gdp.

Remember folks, econ is a social science with a purpose--to maximize the wellbeing of people. The goal, in fact, is to maximize GDP per capita, not to maximize GDP. That cannot be accomplished by listening to the "advice" of the third world on what, according to their biased opinions, is "inevitable."

"American workers have NEVER competed on price. There have been countries that have outpriced us on labor for hundreds of years. So what? We don't intend to become them."

Instead we will become country that will build bridges that dont last, tunnels that cave in and levees that dont hold.

"The success of our country has been in maintaining a high capital/labor ratio. Limiting both the birth rate and immigration is the only way to accomplish this."

That is why we build bridges that fall.

"Can/does capital migrate? Yes. But that's no excuse to support unlimited immigration. The capital stock of the US continues to increase at a faster rate than capital is outsourced--mostly because a 3% growth rate on our huge capital stock is GREATER than the outflux due to outsourcing. If we limit immigration, we will remain the wealthiest country in the world even as we invest overseas."

BS. Only overall immigration, not skilled immigration.

"There's a reason TRADE is called TRADE, and IMMIGRATION is called IMMIGRATION. We are designed, as a country, to exploit the third world, without becoming it."

That is why we hear whiners complaining about TRADE in congress.

"If work can be done more cheaply elsewhere, it should be done there. Elsewhere."

Soon you wont have many jobs left and tax revenues will fall.

"American programmers and current H-1Bs do not benefit by having more new H-1Bs come here. It is much better to specialize in what cannot be offshored--small projects with loose specs--than to deal with the decline overall wages and inflation caused by increased immigration."

More BS. You have been listening to George Borjas's BS.

"People are not the same as goods, nor are they the same thing as tradable services. As much as I believe in free trade--and I do believe in it--I don't believe that immigration and trade are the same thing. Immigration puts a physical body in the US--one that not only offers services onsite, but also raises the prices of land, goods and services in the immediate area."

Also increases tax revenues and reduces the budget deficit, which means we dont have to borrow from SE Asia.

"Trade, on the other hand, merely forces Americans to specialize in areas that are less tradeable."

Like janitors and cleaners and building poor roads and bridges.

"It's very obvious which one is better for Americans--as well as for the current immigrants."

We know. Shoddy work..levies in Louisiana..non-tradable good. Nearly 10,000 people dead. We know what is good for Americans indeed!!

"American programmers, green-carded programmers, and current H-1Bs should all work together to keep the cap low--which will ensure high wages, better job stability, and a shorter wait for a greencard."

You believe in a static economy.

"Finally, I am delighted that you have found a job in Asia managing poorly paid workers and get a 6 figure salary yourself. Sounds like fun--but please--enjoy this in Asia, not in the US. We're a country that likes a high PER CAPITA gdp."

You are pretty ignorant. At least two countries in SE Asia have higher paid workers than the US.

"Remember folks, econ is a social science with a purpose--to maximize the wellbeing of people. The goal, in fact, is to maximize GDP per capita, not to maximize GDP. That cannot be accomplished by listening to the "advice" of the third world on what, according to their biased opinions, is "inevitable.""

Do you understand the concept of FDI or quality? You dont.

George Chell is Indian

"Instead we will become country that will build bridges that dont last, tunnels that cave in and levees that dont hold."

No, we should become like China, a country that enslaves its citizens and puts lead in paint and wood achohol in toothpaste.

Or like India, a country that seems to have more trains derailing, exploding, and ending up in marshes than any country in the world.

You have a lot of nerve making fun of the FEW--very few--disasters the United States has as a method of debate. Not only is this morbid and insensitive, but its grossly inaccurate. The last bridge disaster in the US was over 20 years ago. India seems to crash a train nearly every week.

We are the safest country in the world, by far, and the ONLY thing holding up repair work anywhere is a shortage of construction workers--not a shortage on engineers. H-1B, if anything, worsens the problem by selecting ONLY skilled labor and preventing foreign construction workers from entering the country.

"That is why we build bridges that fall."

How many bridges does the US have? And we have ONE accident in twenty years, and we have to hear this, from YOU?

"We know. Shoddy work..levies in Louisiana..non-tradable good. Nearly 10,000 people dead. We know what is good for Americans indeed!!"

Those levies were built during an era in which many South-East asians were busy bombing the US. I don't think the Japanese were too interested in helping us impove the design when they were bombing Pearl Harbor.

And even if they were, the design was fine for that time period. The geography of the area has changed--and Americans are aware. Everything you read in the news has been published by American engineers.

To reconstruct anything, we need construction workers. Something that H-1B won't allow into the country.

"You believe in a static economy."

You believe that a law that mentions technical workers, specifically, isn't market tampering.

"At least two countries in SE Asia have higher paid workers than the US."

Which two are those? Accordint the most current per-capita GDP statistics, NONE of the coutries with a higher per-capita GDP than the US are in southeast asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

"Do you understand the concept of FDI or quality? You dont."

Wow. One technical term came out of your mouth. I'm impressed. Please save our country from the complete dolts that populate our entire landscape.

You're racist, insensitive, and frankly, stupid. Stay overseas.

"You have a lot of nerve making fun of the FEW--very few--disasters the United States has as a method of debate. Not only is this morbid and insensitive, but its grossly inaccurate. The last bridge disaster in the US was over 20 years ago. India seems to crash a train nearly every week."

Why dont you compare yourselves to Africa.

"We are the safest country in the world, by far, and the ONLY thing holding up repair work anywhere is a shortage of construction workers--not a shortage on engineers. H-1B, if anything, worsens the problem by selecting ONLY skilled labor and preventing foreign construction workers from entering the country."

Studies have indicated skilled workers are better for this economy than unskilled. Your arguments are dumb.

"Those levies were built during an era in which many South-East asians were busy bombing the US. I don't think the Japanese were too interested in helping us impove the design when they were bombing Pearl Harbor."

Moron. South East Asians never bombed the US. Japan is not in South East Asia. Learn your geograpy.

"And even if they were, the design was fine for that time period. The geography of the area has changed--and Americans are aware. Everything you read in the news has been published by American engineers.

To reconstruct anything, we need construction workers. Something that H-1B won't allow into the country."

Poor quality and more excuses.

"You believe that a law that mentions technical workers, specifically, isn't market tampering."

I believe not hiring the best workers is market tampering.

"Which two are those? Accordint the most current per-capita GDP statistics, NONE of the coutries with a higher per-capita GDP than the US are in southeast asia."

Moron. GDP and higher pay are not one and the same thing. Idiot. That is why Americans go and find employment in low tax Singapore and no tax Hong Kong. You are an idiot..this statement proves it.

"Wow. One technical term came out of your mouth. I'm impressed. Please save our country from the complete dolts that populate our entire landscape."

More idiotic statment.

"You're racist, insensitive, and frankly, stupid. Stay overseas."

You are an idiot, moron, cant take criticism and plainly dumb. Dont even know where in the world I am staying. What a moron.

First of all the competition is not between India and the US but between the US and other developed countries. Microsoft is not moving operations to India but to Canada. If it cannot employ a H1-B in the US it would employ that H1-B in Canada or Australia. So the job does not move to India but it moves to Australia and Canada or for that matter Singapore. The recent movement of global HQ from the US to other countries is an extreme example of this. Comparing train derailment in India with bridges collapsing in the US is absurd as we are not really competing with India. Ask how many bridges have collapsed in Australia, UK or Canada. our direct competitors for global skilled labor, even during storms, or how many towns had problems similar to New Orleans or how many tunnels have collapsed due to shoddy work like Big Dig in Denmark or Holland..the answer would be very different..the US would rank not so great.

Secondly with guys like Test Test I am not surprised that corporations want to outsource to other countries. The guy does not even know his geography...a point I have to agree with Chell. As far as I know no South East Asian country ever bombed us or were strong enough to bomb us...if he is referrring to Japan...it is in East Asia, closer to Russia...learn your Geography first, build good bridges and levees, investments will leave Australia, Canada and UK and definitely Japan and come to the US and American investment would stay in the US. Otherwise we will become the laughing stock of the developed world...regarding health indicators such as infant mortality rates and TB we already are.

Sorry one omitted word..should read Big Dig in Boston.

"George Chell is Indian"

That is all you can contribute?

"Why dont you compare yourselves to Africa [rather than India]"

Since India is where most H-1Bs are from, it seemd the logical choice for a comparison. However the US has one of the best saftey records for the huge number of bridges we have, no matter whom we are compared against.

"Studies have indicated skilled workers are better for this economy than unskilled. Your arguments are dumb."

You're dumb. You can't do construction projects without construction workers.

"Moron. South East Asians never bombed the US. Japan is not in South East Asia. Learn your geograpy."

YOU included it in your definition when you claimed that two countries there have a higher per-capita GDP than the US. There's only two countries in ALL of Asia that compare to the US--Japan and Singapore--although they both have a lower per-capita GDP.

Hong Kong isn't a separate country, but a region within China--and it also has a lower per-capita GDP than the US. Australia isn't normally considered an Asian country (although its per-capita GDP is also lower).

"Poor quality and more excuses."

Every country's infrastruture reflects what it can AFFORD to build, not what it can design. America, being a very wealthy contry, has one of the best of infrastructures in the world--but we are aware it isn't perfect. Importing more engineers will only make us more aware it's not perfect--but will not enable us to fix it.

Importing construction workers will enable us to fix it.

Despite our lack of construction workers--which is caused by unfair laws like H-1B--America's infrastructure is most likely vastly superior to whatever country you're from.

"Moron. GDP and higher pay are not one and the same thing. Idiot. That is why Americans go and find employment in low tax Singapore and no tax Hong Kong."

They go there for tourism, first and foremost, and because their income RELATIVE TO OTHER PEOPLE is high. IT workers in the US have higher salaries than in both Singapore and Hong Kong--it's just that the latter two places have a population that is, overall, paid less than most Americans.

H-1B will make IT workers in America feel MORE poor relative to the general population. It's the reason this problem exists to begin with.

"More idiotic statment."

Since you picked on my geography in a part of the world I am not native too, I can critize your English. When using "more", you pluralize "statements." As in "Goerge Chell makes many idiotic statments."

"Dont even know where in the world I am staying. What a moron."

Why are you playing twenty questions? You make false statements about countries somewhere in Asia--claiming they have higher-paid workers than the US--and since this isn't factually true, I am forced to choose from the few countries that come CLOSE and guess which ones you mean.

"You are an idiot, moron, cant take criticism and plainly dumb."

No you're the moron who insults us, makes fun of the few human tragedies the US has, and suggests this is an appropriate form of "criticism" of the US--despite it having one of the best saftey records in the world. You display a huge disdain for the American people, and yet, feel some how your presence here would benefit us.

I disagree. I feel if you DID enter the US, you would have no loyalty to the Americans you clearly hate--and would spend of your time to trying hurt our economy and better your own.

FORTUNATELY, you are too stupid to accomplish anything you attempt to do. Everything you've said so far has proven you're a person with low intelligence and an over-inflated ego.

"Test I am not surprised that corporations want to outsource to other countries. The guy does not even know his geography"

I am not employed for my knowledge of Asian geography, any more than Chell is employed for his knowledge of US geography, his understanding of economics, or his ability to speak English.

"Sorry one omitted word..should read Big Dig in Boston [rather than Denmark]"

And you're criticizing my Geography?

--------------

Now that I am done insulting you idiots, I will say it again:

H-1B is market tampering. It mentions technical workers. It prevents construction workers and manual laborers from entering the US. The lack of construction workers is the reason highway projects aren't getting done.

One other thing:

These guys, in their hatred of America, make a big deal out of the fact that IT workers in America aren't paid very well relative to the general population.

Of course, this is caused by only one thing--H-1B. If it were not for this law, IT workers in America would be paid much higher salariers compared to the rest of the population.

Chell and Keith enjoy the lifestyle of living in countries with large numbers of unskiled workers--but suggest that America should take the exact opposite course of action. They feel the US should import only SKILLED workers, lowering the wage of IT (relative to the general population) even further.

Clearly these people have no interest in what's best for America, or what America actually needs. Instead, they simply enjoy insulting Americans while suggesting whatever course of action would be most convenient for themselves.

If this attitude is representative of most H-1Bs thoughts and intentions--we need to rexamine who we're admitting immediately.

"Of course, this is caused by only one thing--H-1B. If it were not for this law, IT workers in America would be paid much higher salariers compared to the rest of the population."

More BS. Outsourcing is the main reason why IT workers are paid less. If they cant recruit the guys they want here, they move jobs abroad. Simple stuff. CEOs have said this. You can keep burying your head in the sand. Actually in the past five years, when the H1-Bs have been cut in half, IT salaries have declined...basic economics in a global economy. Continue to be deluded.

"Chell and Keith enjoy the lifestyle of living in countries with large numbers of unskiled workers--but suggest that America should take the exact opposite course of action. They feel the US should import only SKILLED workers, lowering the wage of IT (relative to the general population) even further."

Proportion to the population there are more skilled workers in the UK and Holland than in the US. Singapore is only slightly behind. You are an ignoramous. As I said you dont even know where I live. You are that dumb.

Clearly these people have no interest in what's best for America, or what America actually needs. Instead, they simply enjoy insulting Americans while suggesting whatever course of action would be most convenient for themselves.

If this attitude is representative of most H-1Bs thoughts and intentions--we need to rexamine who we're admitting immediately.

"Clearly these people have no interest in what's best for America, or what America actually needs. Instead, they simply enjoy insulting Americans while suggesting whatever course of action would be most convenient for themselves.

If this attitude is representative of most H-1Bs thoughts and intentions--we need to rexamine who we're admitting immediately."

I think there are more qualified people to make that judgement at the Fed and everywhere else rather than you.

"Since India is where most H-1Bs are from, it seemd the logical choice for a comparison. However the US has one of the best saftey records for the huge number of bridges we have, no matter whom we are compared against."

That is your understanding of the global economy..pretty dim I must say.

"You're dumb. You can't do construction projects without construction workers."

Than admit more construction workers.

"YOU included it in your definition when you claimed that two countries there have a higher per-capita GDP than the US. There's only two countries in ALL of Asia that compare to the US--Japan and Singapore--although they both have a lower per-capita GDP."

No moron. Hong Kong which may be under China but is still treated as a separate entity and Singapore. GDP does not have anything to do with take home salary. 33% tax rates in the US. 15% in Singapore. Singapore citizens take home more pay. Invest back in the economy and that is why they have a 9% growth rate. In Hong Kong there is no tax. In Dubai and Qatar there is no tax. Take home pay is high. Growth rate is over 5%. Poverty in Singapore is less than 1%. That is why they have Americans falling over each other to work in these countries..higher salary and low taxes. And guess what, much higher foreign labor at the H1-B level than the US, and these are the guys taking jobs from the US, not India. Your understanding of economics is pretty shallow.

"Hong Kong isn't a separate country, but a region within China--and it also has a lower per-capita GDP than the US. Australia isn't normally considered an Asian country (although its per-capita GDP is also lower)."

More excuses. Dont give a damn whether it is a separate country or not. Still salary tax free, and still higher than the US.

"Every country's infrastruture reflects what it can AFFORD to build, not what it can design. America, being a very wealthy contry, has one of the best of infrastructures in the world--but we are aware it isn't perfect. Importing more engineers will only make us more aware it's not perfect--but will not enable us to fix it."

One of the best..again vague. Where does it rank? Try the Global Competitiveness Report.

"Importing construction workers will enable us to fix it."

Write to your congressmen.

"Despite our lack of construction workers--which is caused by unfair laws like H-1B--America's infrastructure is most likely vastly superior to whatever country you're from."

No. You increase construction workers, not cut back on H1-B.

"They go there for tourism, first and foremost, and because their income RELATIVE TO OTHER PEOPLE is high. IT workers in the US have higher salaries than in both Singapore and Hong Kong--it's just that the latter two places have a population that is, overall, paid less than most Americans."

Stop your rhetoric and give me proof. Dream on!!

"H-1B will make IT workers in America feel MORE poor relative to the general population. It's the reason this problem exists to begin with."

If they do a better job they will be hired. Blacks are paid less in America than whites for the same job. It is a proven fact. Yet corporations hire whites over blacks, so say many lawsuits a number of which have been won. If an American does not get a job he himself is to blame, particularly a white American. The fact that a white American cannot get a job due to H1-B is pretty laughable.

"Since you picked on my geography in a part of the world I am not native too, I can critize your English. When using "more", you pluralize "statements." As in "Goerge Chell makes many idiotic statments."

As in Test Test make more idiotic statements.

"Why are you playing twenty questions? You make false statements about countries somewhere in Asia--claiming they have higher-paid workers than the US--and since this isn't factually true, I am forced to choose from the few countries that come CLOSE and guess which ones you mean."

If so disprove what I have said.

"No you're the moron who insults us, makes fun of the few human tragedies the US has, and suggests this is an appropriate form of "criticism" of the US--despite it having one of the best saftey records in the world. You display a huge disdain for the American people, and yet, feel some how your presence here would benefit us."

Because for all their so called ingenuity they cant even fix a damn levee.

"I disagree. I feel if you DID enter the US, you would have no loyalty to the Americans you clearly hate--and would spend of your time to trying hurt our economy and better your own."

I am already bettering my own.

"FORTUNATELY, you are too stupid to accomplish anything you attempt to do. Everything you've said so far has proven you're a person with low intelligence and an over-inflated ego."

You have extremely low intelligence. Give me links to prove what I have said is not right.

"I am not employed for my knowledge of Asian geography, any more than Chell is employed for his knowledge of US geography, his understanding of economics, or his ability to speak English."

Yes, I know you may be employed simply because you are an American...not for a skill.

"And you're criticizing my Geography?"

Yes. I am. Mine was a typo. You are dumb..you dont even know that South East Asia never bombed the US. If Microsoft read this they will be opening more jobs in Canada.

"H-1B is market tampering. It mentions technical workers. It prevents construction workers and manual laborers from entering the US. The lack of construction workers is the reason highway projects aren't getting done."

It does not. They can always increase the H2-B workers to let them in without giving them Permanent Residency and a path to citizenship. Secondly all anti-immigration groups will strongly disagree with you about letting in manual and construction workers.

Basically humans are selfish. Everyone tries to protect their own turf. Asians complain about Americans although most of these complainers have worked in the US. Americans in Singapore are not happy with foreigners in the US although these clowns have been around there for ten years working in a foreign country. You go to construction worker he does not want foreign competition..pay us higher wages, he would say. Technical workers would say the same thing...give me higher wages. Anti immigration groups such as FAIR and CIS would claim to fight for the US worker and for higher wages but would not lift a finger to help in raising the minimum wage. They wont show up at picket lines to protest outsourcing. These groups are more afraid of the chnages in the racial composition of America. No one is interested in their country or countries. Everyone is out there to line their pockets. If you really think all these people have the best intention for America, Australia or whichever country they belong you are deluded or on drugs.

First of all, I'm not in management and I work mostly with AMER/EMEA clients and on EMEA/AMER projects. I'll learn Japanese or/and Cantonese if it gives me an edge (I'm not mentioning constant education within domain of expertise that any self respecting engineer must do during entire career). BTW, do you really think I have less comptetive pressure being few hundred miles from India/China and zero restriction on skilled labor migration in SEA ? If I make it ok in substantially more comptetive marketplace why you can't do the same ?

As far as American never competing on price: oh yeah, you did, it's just during Cold War more than 70% of global labor pool was shut out so you had to compete with Japanese and Western Europe only. You do remember horror stories in 80s about Japanese taking over everything ? Now iron curtain is no longer there and you get awful lot of people added into global labor pool and global market economy WILL compensate for that whether you want it or not. It's just nature of the markets. Adapt or perish, that's what US taught entire world and we got with the program but it seems there is a chunk of US population that was absent during the class.

"Proportion to the population there are more skilled workers in the UK and Holland than in the US. Singapore is only slightly behind. You are an ignoramous. As I said you dont even know where I live. You are that dumb."

Do you know where I live? Precisely? If not, you're a moron.

Secondly, the US has more college educated workers per capita than either of those two countries. We are the most over-educated country in the world.

"As far as American never competing on price: oh yeah, you did, it's just during Cold War more than 70% of global labor pool was shut out so you had to compete with Japanese and Western Europe only. You do remember horror stories in 80s about Japanese taking over everything ? Now iron curtain is no longer there and you get awful lot of people added into global labor pool and global market economy WILL compensate for that whether you want it or not. It's just nature of the markets. Adapt or perish, that's what US taught entire world and we got with the program but it seems there is a chunk of US population that was absent during the class."

Most of those stories were overblown and used to justify wrongheaded economic polices. We did not benefit from subsidysing the auto industry or attemting to adapt Japanese management practices. The current hype about a "shortage" of technical labor is being used to justify an increase in the H-1B cap.

H-1B is market tampering. It mentions technical workers for no particular reason.

It hurts American programmers through lower wages; it hurts current H-1Bs that want to stay by lowering wages, job security, and increasing the line for a green card.

The only people you see supporting the increase on here are foreigners who work for outsourcing companies and whom don't even reside in the US. Some of them even smile at our natural disasters and call us stupid. We are stupid--if we listen to them.

To George Chell:

Which states reside in the southeastern US? Name all of them. Don't use google.

Name 5 mexican border towns. Don't use google.

If you get ONE answer wrong you're a moron.

Everyone knows more about their local geography than other areas.

I knew Japan was an island in Asia, east of Korea and south of Russia. I did not know it wasn't included in the arbitrary border used to define "southeast asia."

I still know alot more about economics than you. H-1B is market tampering. It mentions technical workers for no reason.

Increasing the cap will hurt current H-1Bs by lowering wages, lowering job security and increasing the wait for a greencard.

Are you for real ? What do you mean by stories overblown about Japan manufacturers squezung out Detroit Big 3 ? Have you looked at market share dynamics ? Japanese auto makers did squeze GM, Ford and Chrysler out because they delivered better goods for better price. Obviosuly protectionists at the time were screaming from the top of their lungs just like you doing now. So if those stories were overblown then why same doesn't apply to your stories ? Or does it mean it's ok to replace US auto worker but doing the same to US techie is a blasphemy ? It boils down to the same principle: you are not willing to compete on price/quality/perfomance and instead looking out to government to protect you from competition just like auto manufacturers in 80s.

BTW, you haven't answered my question why you can't compete the way I see thousands competing with low cost countries. It's somewhat easy: you work better and harder than others, you consume less and invest more, you stay on the edge, adapt to marketplace and roll with the punches instead of sitting on your butt and demanding protection from government.

"What do you mean by stories overblown about Japan manufacturers"

I mean the auto industry did not turn out to be as important to the US economy as we thought--other industries arose to take its place. Japan suffered a huge economic collapse in the 90's that made us much less envious of them. And Japanese management practices turned out not to be the silver bullet; instead it was cheap labor and cheap capital (due to Japanese citizens saving huge amounts in low-interest checking accounts) that funded the boom in Japan during the 80's. When the next generation demanded fair wages and started investing in higher-return investments, the subsidy of cheap labor and capital ended--and so did the "success story" of Japanese corporations.

"BTW, you haven't answered my question why you can't compete the way I see thousands competing with low cost countries"

Me, me, me. Always have to make a political discussion personal and start insulting people. I compete just fine, thanks. One way I compete is by lobbying--just like you're trying too. Why are you wasting time here if everything is so perfect overseas, Americans are stupid, and noone wants to come to this darn country anyway? Stick with your superior people--overseas.

You haven't answered MY question as to why you can't keep your opinions to yourself. You're not even an immigrant yet. You've shown a such a disdain for the American people that you would have to lie about your true feelings if you ever were to get admitted to the US.

Your opinions about US policy DON'T MATTER. We have NO obligation to follow the whims of people who dislike us, who aren't immigrants, and have yet to even set foot on US soil.

You claim to love your job overseas overseas, yet, you're busying lobbying online for a visa to get to the US. Why? You're probably going to lose your job soon--that's why--and you're aware that you may want to come to the US someday.

The US is not a low-cost country. Every worker's wage BESIDES technical workers is protected from the H-1B law.

When programmers get their haircut, they pay US wages. When their kids go to school, they pay US teachers salaries. When they pay taxes, they pay US government officals salaries. When they go to the hospital, they pay US nurses salaries. When they need legal advice, they pay US attornies salaries. When they buy houses, they pay US construction workers salaries. When they buy food, they pay US restaurant workers salaries.

IN THAT CONTEXT, the H-1B law mentions technical workers, specifically. It is market tampering because the law mentions tech workers--specifically, and does not mention other professions. In a high-cost country like the US, programmers cannot afford to be singled out and mentioned specifically in special laws.

An increase in the H-1B cap only means the following things for current H-1Bs--it means lower wages, less job security, less residency stability, and a longer line for a green card.

Participating in a race to the bottom - in other words, increasing H1-B visas - is exactly that - a race to the bottom.

It's time to call their bluff.

> Me, me, me. Always have to make a political
> discussion personal and start insulting people.
> I compete just fine, thanks. One way I compete
> is by lobbying--just like you're trying too. Why
> are you wasting time here if everything is so
> perfect overseas, Americans are stupid, and noone
> wants to come to this darn country anyway? Stick
> with your superior people--overseas.

Well with that kind of communication skills I see why people wouldn't work with you. BTW, before teaching manners you better follow your own advice. As far as me having an opinion, take a chill pill, this is World Wide Web, you don't a have a monopoly on who says what (though it looks like you are craving one).

Looks really funny, as soon as you ran out of coherent argument you start shouting "Shut up, I'm right".

I don't really care about H1B. I know US companies will hire me for 6 figure salary if not in US then outside whether it's Zurich, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo or Sydney. Do you really think that your lobbying effort can mask undeniable truth: you are not delivering bang for a buck and rather sooner than later you are going to lose out unless you compete on getting job done rather than whining level. That's all here is.

"Well with that kind of communication skills I see why people wouldn't work with you."

Is that how you normally respond when people don't agree with an insult you just gave them? Dude, it's YOU that people don't want to work with.

You have a lot of learning to do, no matter what country you are in.

"Just a foreigner"

One other thing. I don't think you deliver anything of value at all. Just because you say the whole world is clamoring to offer you 6 figures--and will continue to do so, forever--doesn't make it true. I imagine that if we fast forward a few years, you'll be working for very low wages, or unemployed.

You certainly haven't exhibited good people skills here.

"As far as me having an opinion, take a chill pill, this is World Wide Web"

Your OPINION is that all Americans are stupid. Do you really expect noone in America to disagree with it?

Where, exactly, did you learn your wonderful people skills that are so in demand?

"more offshoring if U.S. tightens on immigration"

Don't care. Are we only pretending its a law-abiding society?

Move 'em to Canada - they'll love the tax structure there!

"who is going to be left with a decent salary so that they can buy those goods and services?"

Why, the same people who'll be left when all the low level jobs are 'outsourced' !

Oh, wait... that would be NO ONE!

http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com
[url=http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com]http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com[/url]

http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com
[url=http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com]http://rewfu.s-enterprize.com[/url]